At the frontier of faith: An interview with John Hick

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At the frontier of faith: An interview with John Hick

John Hick

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At the frontier of faith: An interview with John Hick

Information: John Hick has made major contributions in the philosophy of religion, and is particularly noted for his Irenaean theodicy and pluralist hypothesis. In this interview he talks about his work in both of these areas, as well as his recent book The New Frontier of Religion and Science, which considers the matter of religious experience using insights gained from recent work in neuroscience.

Steve: Thanks for taking time out to talk to us. You are well-known for your contributions in two major areas of the philosophy of religion - these being the Irenaean theodicy and religious pluralism. How did you become interested in these different areas?

John: My first book, Faith and Knowledge (1947 and 1966) was on the epistemology of religion, which I see as fundamental within the philosophy of religion. This argued that we experience, rather than infer God. Of course, if we say that we are rationally entitled (on the basis of religious experience) to believe in the reality of God, we now face the problem of evil (which I discussed in Evil and the God of Love (1966, 1977, 2007)). Belief in God also means we have to face the problem of religious plurality and diversity, which I discussed in An Interpretation of Religion (1986, 2004), and several other books.

'Once you start thinking about the big questions, one naturally leads on to another.'

Steve: Let's talk about your Irenaean theodicy. How does that work on a pragmatic level? For instance, how would you apply the Irenaean point-of-view to say comment on what is going on in Iraq today (i.e. why are people suffering there today, and how does this relate to their moral/spiritual development etc.)?

John: The Irenaean theodicy does not ask why God might have caused or allowed specific evils (such as the Iraq war) to occur, but why has God created a world in which free beings can use and misuse their freedom within a challenging environment, so as to gradually (in this life and beyond) grow into mature children of God?

In the case of the Iraq war, this has been caused by massive misuses of freewill over a period of many years. Now this is clearly no consolation in face of an oncoming tank firing at you – the best thing to do at that point is to get out of the way! - but in terms of our lives as a whole, the Irenaean approach does change the way we view things, if we believe that everything we experience is part of a long creative process.

Steve: Why do you think that for so many years now, the Freewill Defence has been the more popular (and readily embraced) Christian response to the problem of evil and suffering?

John: I think that the Freewill Defence is correct insofar as it goes, but is limited in what it can say about natural evils such as earthquakes, diseases, tsunamis, etc., which are not caused by human actions. I also don't take seriously the idea of a devil who is at work in the world, which is something we also find associated with this theodicy.

Steve: Outside of Christianity, are there any theodicies in other world faiths you have been impressed with?

John: I think the most interesting is the Buddhist, although this is not really a theodicy because there is no 'Theos' involved. The Buddhist approach says that we don't know (because we don't need to know), why the world exists or why we exist. Instead, we just need to know the way to end suffering. Suffering comes from experiencing life from an ego-centered point of view, and we end it by transcending egoity. The way to achieve this is found in the Noble Eightfold Path, which is partly moral (including developing compassion for others), and partly meditation. The path goes on through many lives.

'Although I have not embraced this Buddhist view, I find it impressive, and I also find the lives of genuine Buddhists impressive too.'

Steve: In your autobiography, you talk about a time when you had an 'evangelical faith'. Can you tell us something about this period of time in your life?

John: Yes, when I was a young law student I underwent a strong evangelical conversion, which meant abandoning a career in law and training instead for the Christian ministry. Because of the evangelical fellow students I was with, I took over the entire fundamentalist package - the verbal inspiration of the Bible, the deity of Jesus, his virgin birth (or rather conception), salvation by the blood of Christ, his bodily resurrection and ascension. It took me a number of years to gradually disentangle myself from this belief system (which I now wholly reject), whilst retaining the importance of conversion to the religious life. If readers want to know more about my present theological position, then they should read the article Believable Christianity on my website.

Steve: I want to move on to talk about your work on the relationship between the different religions. Could you begin by explaining what you mean by the term 'experiencing-as', and your use of it.

Looking through a pair of glasses John: Kant showed us a long time ago that the mind is active in perception. We do not experience the world as it is in itself (unperceived), but as it appears to specifically human consciousnesses - as the phenomenal world. Cognitive psychology and the sociology of knowledge have also confirmed this. Wittgenstein coined the term 'seeing-as' to explain this process - we see it as we interpret it. 'Experiencing-as' expands this from seeing to experiencing with all the senses, and I have suggested that this also applies to religious experience.

'In religious experience we experience the universal presence of the Ultimate, the Ultimate Reality, the Transcendent, the Real, but always as it affects people within different cultures, with their different conceptualities and different spiritual practices.'

At ground level these are the different religions. We do not experience the Real in itself, but as religious phenomenon.

Steve: Can you say something more about the Real, and its importance for your understanding of the relationship between the different world faiths?

John: The Real is one of several equally valid terms: Ultimate Reality, the Ultimate, the Transcendent, the Real. It is useful because it roughly corresponds to the Arabic al-Haqq (in some contexts) and the Sanskrit sat (again, in some contexts). I postulate the Real as that which there must be if human religious experience around the world is not purely projection (although there is always an element of projection within it, and sometime it is purely projection), but at the same time a response to a reality affecting us.

'If the different religions represent different human awareness's of and responses to the Real, then whilst being very different they may all be equally valid.'

Steve: What (for you) counts as the strongest evidence for the existence of the Real, and what (for you) might count as the strongest evidence for its non-existence?

John: It is not a question of evidence from which we might infer the reality of the Transcendent, but of the rationality of trusting religious experience. My most recent argument for this position can be found in Part III of my new book The New Frontier of Religion and Science.

Steve: I was going to ask you about your new book - can you tell us something about it.

John: Yes, The New Frontier of Religion and Science is about the centrality of religious experience (rather than religious institutions), about the challenge of contemporary neuroscience to the validity of religious experience, about the epistemological problem just referred to, religious pluralism, spirituality, and life after death.

Steve: The book revisits topics you explored in An Interpretation of Religion. Would you say that it complements or supersedes the ideas you wrote about there?

John: I would say that it complements, rather than supersedes An Interpretation of Religion.

Steve: Why have you chosen to write this book at this time?

John: I have spent several years reading about the very fascinating work going on in the neurosciences, and getting information from colleagues at the University (of Birmingham), and in the end wanted to tackle the challenge that this poses to religious experience. This seems to me to be the new frontier of religion and science; hence the book, which also sets this into a wider context.

Steve: Being so concerned to promote a healthier understanding of, and relationship between the different world faiths, did you raise your children to be religious pluralists?

John: I think they have all taken on board the broad idea of religious pluralism (though none are church goers), and two of my grand children have chosen Religious Studies for their A levels. But they all have to find for themselves, their own way in life.

Steve: Before we end... What do see as the next 'frontier' of faith/philosophy needing to be explored?

John: Religious plurality has still not been fully faced by religious people, this is a frontier yet to be crossed by most.

(Interview posted May 17th, 2007)

Personal note: I am deeply touched by the fact that John Hick was prepared to be interviewed for this website. John Hick is a real theological hero of mine, and someone whose work I deeply respect (and mostly agree with). I was fortunate to read three of Hick's books (An Interpretation of Religion, The Metaphor of God Incarnate, and A Christian Theology of Religions (aka The Rainbow of Faiths)) at a time in my life when I was struggling to free myself from a fundamentalist form of belief, and needed someone to help me find new ways to think about matters to do with faith. The reason why I have a passion and desire to study and discuss religious issues in a critical yet respectful manner, is because John Hick gave me a fresh pair of eyes to see the world through. I would recommend to anyone facing troubling times in their spiritual life, that they consider reading some of Hick's work before they give up on their faith altogether... Steve

Buy The New Frontier of Religion and Science from Amazon.co.uk, or click here to purchase it through Amazon.com.

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At the frontier of faith: An interview with John Hick